Well done. As a longtime SBC pastor I often am regarded as an outlier - I don’t support Trump, but I do pray for him. I was encouraged with Moore apologized for the article and am persuaded that Dr Moore is correct - the SBC as an institution covers up sexual abuse, the SBC by and large treads dangerously close to idolatry with the loud and clear pro-Trump stands of significant leaders among SBC institutions. I can’t speak too loudly in the area in which I live - my county is solidly Republican and rabidly pro-Trump, the churches in the region where I serve and live are pastored by those who believe David Barton is a legitimate historian and everyone else is a liar, and well, I could go on. Thanks for your perspective.
An honest question - why continue on as part of a tradition that has become so hopelessly bereft of the capacity to just tell the truth about these things anymore? We are not called to ancestor worship or tradition for its own sake.
A great question. First I would say that there are any number of individual institutions in the SBC that are worth saving. Second, echoing advice I heard from D. James Kennedy, a long-time Pastor in the Presbyterian world - its easier to achieve change from inside an organization than outside. I have a very limited voice in one or two forums that I can continue to agitate for change.
Thank you for saying this! You articulated so well the cultural (in this case, evangelical) impulse to focus on the 5% we disagree on, rather than the 95% that we do. It can be so disheartening to see Christians so unable to dialogue with other believers, even when they have SO much in common. It makes me wonder about their ability to do so with non-believers. So well said, thanks again.
This is a thoughtful post and I appreciated the 95% - 5% framing. It reminds me a bit of some public opinion research I was involved in several years ago, which basically shows the significant extent to which Americans overstate the ideological extremity of people they disagree with. The data is from pre-COVID-19, but the concept of "perception gaps" likely holds true today. https://perceptiongap.us/
I’m sorry, but how could one possibly make the argument that Moore’s refusing to endorse Trump due to his manifest moral unfitness is a sign of Moore’s theological “fall”? This is literally the exact argument the religious right to oppose Clinton’s presidency (with far less grounds, I would argue).To apply one standard to politicians you like and another to those you don’t is proof that you never really cared about the “standard” in the first place; it was all a power grab and the definition of hypocrisy.
Mitzenmacher’s next two arguments are equally spurious. Lying and covering up abuse in the church is the sin that Christians should repent of, and confessing that sin is exactly what they are commanded to do. Recognizing that the church’s witness has been tainted by its willingness to align itself with power rather than the oppressed is doing nothing more than stating an obvious if tragic fact. As far as his last point, I haven’t read the article in question, but saying that Moore initially allowed the publication of an article (before having it retracted) suggesting that Jesus may have been tied to the cross with ropes feels like a pretty shaky basis for a charge of apostasy.
As a theologically conservative evangelical Christian, I am appalled by the way that mitzenmacher and those like him have traded their allegiance to the Gospel to worship at the feet of Trump. It is they, not Moore, who need to repent in sackcloth and ashes.
I’m still a member and regular attendee to a Southern Baptist Church. I am not shy about what I believe. People generally have their minds made up. Critical thinking and actual spiritual discernment are rare. People follow leaders. The SBC has been on the Trump Train since day one. I keep talking and sometimes I get a hint of a pause but I can’t stem the tide of thousands of preachers that think Christ is a Trump Republicans.
I am not burdened for the state of their souls because I don’t believe in a cruel God who punishes his children for following fools. I also don’t believe God is going to overpower their minds and force them into a new way of thinking because I asked Him to. I got to preach there once and preached a sermon about the Christian call to love. Spoke a while about how there aren’t exceptions for political affiliations or residency status. Mostly fell on deaf ears and was never asked to do it again. It’s frustrating watching people following idols. It’s been ever thus. The OT prophets never could stop it. Why would I think I can? The Christian church married itself to political power 1600 years ago.
They have been warned. Even their Bible warns them. People tend to live in echo chambers. People have preferred lies to the truth since they invented language.
Are you burdened for the state of their souls? Or are you just giving them up to hell and judgment without a fight? Did you warn them? The Apostle Paul said in effect, "their blood be on their own head," but only after he had done all he could to reason with them and other them in person to repent. Beware of self-righteousness in your own heart.
So a guy who supports a church hierarchy (though I know he would not agree with that description according to the independence of SBC churches) that willfully ignored the perversion and abuse carried out by Paul Pressler-for decades- wants to call Russell Moore to repentance. Yeah, right.
A good piece and pretty convincing. However, what you leave out is that before the piece you take to task, Russell Moore has written hundreds of words himself in almost every issue of the magazine… A flagship evangel publication… He edits, he cannot help the talk about Trump.. The difficulty as I see, it is the politicization of everything and I think it’s a problem created mostly by social media and access to instant information. Evangelicals now treat politics in the activities of the federal government as of equal importance with doctrine, as you point out
I just finished reading an excellent commentary by more on “orality“ and I think it’s the first thing I’ve read by him in a couple years that does not Wade and A politics. It was a wonderful shift.
What's wrong with Moore and general Evangelicalism is certainly "more" subtle than heresy/apostasy. It is cooperation with an emotivistic, relativistic, individualistic, and materialistic world--built from our own lights. The faith is built on "more" solid stuff than that, and certain groups are finding it: classical home schoolers, Great Tradition Christians, and other virtue communities. Don't look to the house; look to its sandy foundation. Perhaps worship is the first corruption; the foundation crack chasing you to the roof.
The difference is obvious that the Trumpists place as much theological weight on the extraorthodox political beliefs they have because modern evangelicalism has a major epistemological problem with a stupid understanding of sola scriptura. These people think that everything they believe can be solely rooted in the Bible and that’s how you get frankly stupid takes on “the biblical case for import taxes” when those conversations are necessarily guided by reason. It’s blasphemous - literally taking the Lord’s name and authority in vain - to pretend to know the One True Divine Take On Banana Import Taxes. I was raised southern Baptist and this kind of thinking is not only taught to the exclusion of any other, every other kind of thinking is viewed as demonic.
What you’re articulating is not sola scriptura historically defined, but misguided biblicism energized by an agenda foreign to the Bible. Sola scriptura does not mean the Bible must justify everything. It means the Bible is the highest authority on all matters it addresses.
I prefer to use the term prima scriptura these days to explain my position against the sola folks. I agree with you but the historical pedigree is often lost in translation.
Excellent article. I find it ironic that Russell Moore, in 2005, came after me in the same manner that Mitzenmacher is now coming after him. LOL. The premise of your article is spot on. The problem on all sides is the lack of unconditional love for Christ's disciples (John 13:25) and the absolute refusal to allow questioning of another's interpretation of the sacred text because institutions supersede intellect, dogma takes precedence over dialogue, and creeds overtake curiosity. In the end, truth wins. "Truth in God's Word is like a lion," Spurgeon said, "You don't have to defend it. Just let it loose." Sadly, defensive Christianity is often derogatory Christianity. 'Speak the truth in love,' and be a friend to those who disagree. Wade Burleson
Well done. As a longtime SBC pastor I often am regarded as an outlier - I don’t support Trump, but I do pray for him. I was encouraged with Moore apologized for the article and am persuaded that Dr Moore is correct - the SBC as an institution covers up sexual abuse, the SBC by and large treads dangerously close to idolatry with the loud and clear pro-Trump stands of significant leaders among SBC institutions. I can’t speak too loudly in the area in which I live - my county is solidly Republican and rabidly pro-Trump, the churches in the region where I serve and live are pastored by those who believe David Barton is a legitimate historian and everyone else is a liar, and well, I could go on. Thanks for your perspective.
An honest question - why continue on as part of a tradition that has become so hopelessly bereft of the capacity to just tell the truth about these things anymore? We are not called to ancestor worship or tradition for its own sake.
A great question. First I would say that there are any number of individual institutions in the SBC that are worth saving. Second, echoing advice I heard from D. James Kennedy, a long-time Pastor in the Presbyterian world - its easier to achieve change from inside an organization than outside. I have a very limited voice in one or two forums that I can continue to agitate for change.
Thank you for saying this! You articulated so well the cultural (in this case, evangelical) impulse to focus on the 5% we disagree on, rather than the 95% that we do. It can be so disheartening to see Christians so unable to dialogue with other believers, even when they have SO much in common. It makes me wonder about their ability to do so with non-believers. So well said, thanks again.
Dr. Moore is great. The hatred for him is every bit as irrational as the shade people throw at David French.
This is a thoughtful post and I appreciated the 95% - 5% framing. It reminds me a bit of some public opinion research I was involved in several years ago, which basically shows the significant extent to which Americans overstate the ideological extremity of people they disagree with. The data is from pre-COVID-19, but the concept of "perception gaps" likely holds true today. https://perceptiongap.us/
Excellent! Just plain ol' excellent! Thank you, Casey!
I’m sorry, but how could one possibly make the argument that Moore’s refusing to endorse Trump due to his manifest moral unfitness is a sign of Moore’s theological “fall”? This is literally the exact argument the religious right to oppose Clinton’s presidency (with far less grounds, I would argue).To apply one standard to politicians you like and another to those you don’t is proof that you never really cared about the “standard” in the first place; it was all a power grab and the definition of hypocrisy.
Mitzenmacher’s next two arguments are equally spurious. Lying and covering up abuse in the church is the sin that Christians should repent of, and confessing that sin is exactly what they are commanded to do. Recognizing that the church’s witness has been tainted by its willingness to align itself with power rather than the oppressed is doing nothing more than stating an obvious if tragic fact. As far as his last point, I haven’t read the article in question, but saying that Moore initially allowed the publication of an article (before having it retracted) suggesting that Jesus may have been tied to the cross with ropes feels like a pretty shaky basis for a charge of apostasy.
As a theologically conservative evangelical Christian, I am appalled by the way that mitzenmacher and those like him have traded their allegiance to the Gospel to worship at the feet of Trump. It is they, not Moore, who need to repent in sackcloth and ashes.
Well said.
🎯
Most southern evangelicals will choose Trump over Jesus every time. Not theoretically. Not if you ask them. But every time if you watch them.
I’m still a member and regular attendee to a Southern Baptist Church. I am not shy about what I believe. People generally have their minds made up. Critical thinking and actual spiritual discernment are rare. People follow leaders. The SBC has been on the Trump Train since day one. I keep talking and sometimes I get a hint of a pause but I can’t stem the tide of thousands of preachers that think Christ is a Trump Republicans.
I am not burdened for the state of their souls because I don’t believe in a cruel God who punishes his children for following fools. I also don’t believe God is going to overpower their minds and force them into a new way of thinking because I asked Him to. I got to preach there once and preached a sermon about the Christian call to love. Spoke a while about how there aren’t exceptions for political affiliations or residency status. Mostly fell on deaf ears and was never asked to do it again. It’s frustrating watching people following idols. It’s been ever thus. The OT prophets never could stop it. Why would I think I can? The Christian church married itself to political power 1600 years ago.
Who will go to them and warn them?
They have been warned. Even their Bible warns them. People tend to live in echo chambers. People have preferred lies to the truth since they invented language.
Are you burdened for the state of their souls? Or are you just giving them up to hell and judgment without a fight? Did you warn them? The Apostle Paul said in effect, "their blood be on their own head," but only after he had done all he could to reason with them and other them in person to repent. Beware of self-righteousness in your own heart.
So a guy who supports a church hierarchy (though I know he would not agree with that description according to the independence of SBC churches) that willfully ignored the perversion and abuse carried out by Paul Pressler-for decades- wants to call Russell Moore to repentance. Yeah, right.
A good piece and pretty convincing. However, what you leave out is that before the piece you take to task, Russell Moore has written hundreds of words himself in almost every issue of the magazine… A flagship evangel publication… He edits, he cannot help the talk about Trump.. The difficulty as I see, it is the politicization of everything and I think it’s a problem created mostly by social media and access to instant information. Evangelicals now treat politics in the activities of the federal government as of equal importance with doctrine, as you point out
I just finished reading an excellent commentary by more on “orality“ and I think it’s the first thing I’ve read by him in a couple years that does not Wade and A politics. It was a wonderful shift.
What's wrong with Moore and general Evangelicalism is certainly "more" subtle than heresy/apostasy. It is cooperation with an emotivistic, relativistic, individualistic, and materialistic world--built from our own lights. The faith is built on "more" solid stuff than that, and certain groups are finding it: classical home schoolers, Great Tradition Christians, and other virtue communities. Don't look to the house; look to its sandy foundation. Perhaps worship is the first corruption; the foundation crack chasing you to the roof.
The difference is obvious that the Trumpists place as much theological weight on the extraorthodox political beliefs they have because modern evangelicalism has a major epistemological problem with a stupid understanding of sola scriptura. These people think that everything they believe can be solely rooted in the Bible and that’s how you get frankly stupid takes on “the biblical case for import taxes” when those conversations are necessarily guided by reason. It’s blasphemous - literally taking the Lord’s name and authority in vain - to pretend to know the One True Divine Take On Banana Import Taxes. I was raised southern Baptist and this kind of thinking is not only taught to the exclusion of any other, every other kind of thinking is viewed as demonic.
What you’re articulating is not sola scriptura historically defined, but misguided biblicism energized by an agenda foreign to the Bible. Sola scriptura does not mean the Bible must justify everything. It means the Bible is the highest authority on all matters it addresses.
I prefer to use the term prima scriptura these days to explain my position against the sola folks. I agree with you but the historical pedigree is often lost in translation.
Excellent article. I find it ironic that Russell Moore, in 2005, came after me in the same manner that Mitzenmacher is now coming after him. LOL. The premise of your article is spot on. The problem on all sides is the lack of unconditional love for Christ's disciples (John 13:25) and the absolute refusal to allow questioning of another's interpretation of the sacred text because institutions supersede intellect, dogma takes precedence over dialogue, and creeds overtake curiosity. In the end, truth wins. "Truth in God's Word is like a lion," Spurgeon said, "You don't have to defend it. Just let it loose." Sadly, defensive Christianity is often derogatory Christianity. 'Speak the truth in love,' and be a friend to those who disagree. Wade Burleson
Thanks for your transparency
Amen! Thank you Casey McCall for writing this.
What are you even taking about? I think you’re making an Elephant out of a Mouse in the Room.